John Doe and Exene Cervenka of Los Angeles rock band X perform at The Current
September 11, 2024
Los Angeles rock band X broke a lot of boundaries, and they’ve always done it their way. Singers and songwriters John Doe and Exene Cervenka visited The Current to perform an acoustic set that touched on three albums in their discography. Afterwards, they stuck around for a conversation with host Jessica Paxton. You can watch the three-song performance above and the interview below. An interview transcript appears beneath the interview video.
Interview Transcript
Jessica Paxton: I'm Jessica Paxton, I'm afternoon host here at The Current, and I'm joined today by Exene Cervenka and John Doe, two legendary artists and musicians in their own right, but here today together as two of the founding members of the seminal punk band X, an incredibly influential band that emerged in the late '70s as part of the California punk scene, a band that, fast-forward 45-plus years, is still breaking ground sonically, your lyrics are just as relevant and significant as ever. I know you're in town for a performance ahead of your forthcoming new album, but we're gonna get started talking a little bit going back 45 years. Welcome to The Current.
Exene Cervenka: Thank you, Jessica.
John Doe: Thanks. Good to be here.
Jessica Paxton: And before we get started, I will be in full disclosure, I've been following you guys, I've been a huge fan since the very beginning. So this is incredible, or an incredible honor for me, because I'm kind of fan girling over here, so I just want to get that out there.
John Doe: It's our pleasure and honor to be part of your musical adventure.
Jessica Paxton: Well, I appreciate it, but it really is. It's amazing to meet you both. So let's go back to 1977. How did the band start? How did you guys meet? Give us the story of of X, the genesis of X.
Exene Cervenka: I moved to Venice. John moved to Venice. I worked at a poetry workshop place that had all kinds of literary stuff, and John and I met the first day. We both went to the workshop on a Wednesday night, and he'd already met Billy, and he told me about the punk scene. We started hanging out and working on songs, and we worked really, really hard, and here we are.
John Doe: I can't add to that. It's perfect.
Jessica Paxton: Well, there's so many things you touched on in that fantastic encapsulation right there: the love of poetry, the love of words, the love of narrative. I feel like one of the things that certainly for me as a fan of X's music is, you know, not just the intense, in-your-face aesthetic that is punk, but the beauty of language and the beauty of narrative and the darker stories that maybe your lyrics told. And I feel like that comes from that shared appreciation for poetry. Talk a little bit about that intentionality in terms of the kind of music you wanted to make.
John Doe: Well, if a story isn't dark, it's not worth telling.
Jessica Paxton: Oh my gosh, I love it.
John Doe: But there's some redemption. And I don't think that we really are an in-your-face punk rock band. We never were obscure or trying to piss people off just by being noisy or aggressive. There was aggression in it, but the songs were fairly traditional. There's a verse, there's a chorus, sometimes there's a bridge, they're melodic. I mean, we haven't fallen too far from a traditional style of songwriting. It just so happens that Billy plays what he does, I play what I do. Exene and I sing the way that we do, which sets us apart. But they're all, all the songs have stories to them. There's a place and a time, and they're somewhat autobiographical, but that can be said even if you write a song about something in the newspaper: You have to identify with it enough. You have to, you know, put enough of yourself and your heart into it to make it worth being a song. So, yeah, we're still doing that, because that's just what we do, and Exene's description of how we met is fitting, because we're minimalists. We don't play fancy; we play well. We don't have grand plans. We don't calculate things. We just do stuff. And it sounds simple, but there's a lot of attention paid to what we do.
Jessica Paxton: There's so much in what you just said that I feel like I want to unpack. First of all, you reminded me of a quote from Vic Chesnutt, who said, "Other people write about the bling and the booty. I write about the pus and the gnats. To me, that's beautiful.” And I read that, it made me think of X because, again, the beauty in sort of the sordid side of life. I also think about your song, "We're Desperate": "We're desperate, get used to it, some people give me the creeps." You know, it's like, oh my gosh, could anything be more spot on? And who was saying something like that lyrically then?
John Doe: Gorilla Rose. You can look him up. He was early days of the Cockettes, and friends with Tomato Du Plenty, and I think he gave me that line.
Jessica Paxton: Really?
John Doe: "We're desperate, get used to it."
Jessica Paxton: OK, I'm looking that up for sure. So related to that, though, I was gonna say, you know, when I said "punk," punk, I think stereotypically, is considered brash, abrasive, in your face, loud, almost unintelligible perhaps.
John Doe: I think that's a really reductive description.
Jessica Paxton: One hundred percent.
John Doe: Because it doesn't take into account where punk rock came from, which is the Modern Lovers, or the MC5, or any of the CBGBs bands, because they were all different. You can't say that the Talking Heads were abrasive or unintelligible. They were very musical. And same with Blondie or the Ramones. And everyone said, "Oh, the Ramones play three chords." Well, that's a fabrication. It sounds like it, but there's more like eight or 10. It's almost like math rock. So, but I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just, I have to push against that kind of description, because that's what people think of, which is not real.
Jessica Paxton: You said exactly what I wanted you to say. So I apologize if I cut you off. Because that was kind of what I was hoping for. And that's the thing is that there's this beautiful musicality. And I was actually going to ask you, like, did, when, unfortunately, people, critics perhaps, music critics, you know, lump certain genres or define certain genres in a way. And to me, that was part of the beauty of X, was taking what maybe was, you know, punk, but then pushing against those definitions and showing how expansive it can be, and showing that you can have this musicality and these stories and that it isn't just so simple and isn't just so simply defined. So that was exactly what I was hoping you guys would say.
Exene Cervenka: I don't think it was the media that came up with that, I think it was people. Because when the hardcore scene in Los Angeles got mixed up with the real punk scene, that's when everything went really bad. And other cities, they kind of commingled OK together, you know? But we had a huge upwelling of the hardcore stuff and it, that became kind of what people considered punk after that. They considered Black Flag to be punk, and X to not exist, pretty much. But I don't think that was the media, because the media was really — like the New York Times, the L.A. Times, all the main publications in the country and in England and places, they really championed the punk scene and especially us, and understood it. And the college radio, of course, and the underground press really understood it. So somehow, I think that just became kind of later, the mainstream, kind of. I don't even know how that became the thing, but it became the thing. Maybe TV or something.
Jessica Paxton: The TV. So you mentioned too, the influence of Los Angeles, the name of your debut album, the influence of being in that city in that time, how that helped to define the band, defined your, you know, artistic journey. I've heard interviews with you, Exene, where you've, you know, talked about the rich cultural and social and political legacy of Los Angeles. John, your bio on your website says you "were born" in 1977 when you moved to Los Angeles. So talk about the impact of that city, the City of Angels, on your lives, artistically and even personally.
Exene Cervenka: Well, I think of it as like Day of the Locust, that book, not the movie, the book. And I think that everybody that enters Los Angeles, you go through this little turnstile, and there you are, and you're in Los Angeles. Now you're part of that fabric of that story, of the silent movie days and the everything, you know, Chinatown and all that stuff. And you walk through that as a player, as a bit player, you know, an extra in that movie. And it was really great when we moved there, because there was still a lot of the old stuff. Like I had a Coke at Schwab's drug store at the counter, thinking, "This is where Lana Turner sat," you know?They're all, and most of those stories are not real. But yeah, we got to see the really old days of L.A. before it all got torn down and ruined. Of course, now there's less of it than now, but it's still kind of a magic place. And yeah, I think, I think that, of course, we helped form, of course we were one of the people that founded the punk scene, so I don't know that we were influenced by it so much as we influenced it. But yeah, that was a great time. The late '70s in L.A. and early '80s in L.A. was just an incredible collision of incredible things. And, you know, just amazing. I'm so lucky that I just accidentally moved there, you know?
Jessica Paxton: And was it accidental, or was it ... ?
Exene Cervenka: I was in Tallahassee, Florida, and I couldn't find a job, and I'd been there for months, and I felt like I had to get out of Florida. And I had one friend. I had two friends in L.A. area, and I got a phone call that somebody was moving to California. They needed someone to help pay for gas, or they couldn't go. And so I just sold my car and went. I didn't really have any plans once I got there, or I had no idea what to expect, but, yeah, but that's, that's what L.A. is. It's that thing of like, you arrive, you get off the bus, you've got your suitcase, literally, and you look around and go, "Wow, I didn't know they had mountains here."
Jessica Paxton: The city of dreams.
Exene Cervenka: It is the city of dreams, yes.
John Doe: But regarding the punk scene, I mean, we were all influencing each other. FEAR or the Screamers or Weirdos or you just name it, we all influenced each other. Plus a lot of the New York bands came to the Whiskey early on, as well as the Damned. So it was just in the water and ready to happen. I think L.A. influenced us through the images, because it was, it seemed, and still is disposable. And coming from the East Coast, it was much different and much more open to experimentation, to do whatever you want. That thing about being born in '77 is just, that's when I adopted the name from, you know, John Waters or Andy Warhol, kind of influence.
Jessica Paxton: And related to that, did you, you changed your name to Exene ...
Exene Cervenka: Long before, long before.
Jessica Paxton: So where did the name of the band X come from? Or was there a connection with I've seen, or was that just coincidental?
Exene Cervenka: Before we really had the band going, we were driving down the street past the Starwood, and there was a, you know, the marquee had some names up there, like, I don't even remember, "The Somebody's," "The Somebody Else's," "The Somebody or Others." And I was in my early days, I was very, you know, rebellious and out there. And I just said, "You know, if I was in a band, I wouldn't even have a name. There would just be a big black X up there." And, and John said, "Oh, you would you name it Big Black X?" I said, "No! It would just be an X, because I don't want to have a name." Because I was, I thought that it was really trite to call yourself "the" something like "The Beatles." I was like, "That's stupid!" You know?
John Doe: And back then there was a lot of "the."
Jessica Paxton: The Damned.
John Doe: The Mumps, The Ramones, the la, la, la.
Exene Cervenka: So I just thought, why do you even have to have that? And a lot of like, Gun Club doesn't have a "the," so we didn't have to have a "the."
John Doe: No, and then you would see X's in many places. You know, vapor trails in the sky.
Exene Cervenka: Well, they didn't have—
John Doe: Whatever!
Exene Cervenka: ...chemtrails back then as much. But—
John Doe: Let's, yeah, you could find them.
Exene Cervenka: But the thing is that the X wasn't like, ubiquitous like it is now.
Jessica Paxton: Yeah.
Exene Cervenka: Like, there wasn't a big deal about X, like, like, now it's, you know.
Jessica Paxton: I'm trying to remember, was it in The Decline of Western Civilization, where there's a you talk about going by...
John Doe: That was in The Unheard Music.
Jessica Paxton: The Unheard Music, where they're they're taking down the Ex-Lax sign, and you're like, "Hey, can I have that X?"
John Doe: I still have it. It's in my house.
Jessica Paxton: That's amazing, but that's amazing.
John Doe: It's pretty big.
Jessica Paxton: I'm also glad when you guys talked about L.A., talking about Hollywood, old Hollywood, and the idea of visuals, because I feel like another thing that sets your work apart, and it both, you know as X the band, and also individually, with your solo careers and multiple other projects, is recognizing the importance of visuals. And so you guys, not only groundbreaking sonically, lyrically, but visually. First and foremost, I mean, let's be honest, Exene, total fashion icon from from day one. And I remember watching, you know, videos of X back in the day and seeing clips, and women my age wanted to emulate the look and attitude of Exene. You were pushing buttons, you know, in terms of how you well, and I don't know if "pushing buttons" is the right way, but making a statement, you know, in terms of how you looked. But I see that as a reflection of your artistry, your creativity. And same with John, same with Billy Zoom, same with D. J. Bonebrake, like you guys had a visual that also was part of the music. And I think that maybe comes from that idea of being in L.A. and thinking about visuals and you are artists.
Exene Cervenka: I started that a long, long time before I came to L.A., dressing like the way I dress and looking the way I look. Like, I wore red lipstick when there was two colors of lipstick in the world: pink and red. And red was Maybelline number two, and that's what I, you get it at the five and dime. So I was always into that. I was always into the olden days. I never liked modern times; even in the '70s, I didn't even like it that much. But when people always say that they want to look like me or whatever, I always say, "Well, if you want to look like me, I can tell you how: Look like yourself." Because that's what I did, right? I was just being original. And I think people get that, but yeah, it's fun to dress up with thrift store clothes. It's a little harder nowadays, but you can still do it. I see it all the time.
John Doe: Yeah. As John Waters said, "If you're young, go to the thrift store, find the ugliest thing and put it on, and you'll be fabulous."
Jessica Paxton: Absolutely.
John Doe: So as you grow older, you have to go and find things that you, that look like they might have been in the thrift store but they're actually very well made, and they're more expensive, but my style...
Jessica Paxton: I just want people to try to look like that now.
John Doe: Yeah, whatever.
Jessica Paxton: They don't have a lot to pick from anymore. Irony is the only fashion statement people can make anymore, I'm afraid. The upside down eyeglasses with the thing on the bottom, and the high-waisted jeans and all that. You can't. There's nothing.
John Doe: Dora the Explorer.
Jessica Paxton: Yeah, there's not much.
John Doe: Whatever. But I think you're, you might be right, because we, I think in Hollywood, in L.A., people were aware of style and Hollywood and and glamor, but it was a reaction against the Peter Frampton and Farrah Fawcett blow-dried hair and the movie star, cocaine, hot tub extravagance, because we didn't have it and couldn't have it, and so we could just do what we did with what we had, and that was good enough. But in that era, you could walk down Hollywood Boulevard with a leather jacket and then get yelled at and be called Devo and things thrown at you because you had holes in your jeans. And it was like, "This is Hollywood, MF-er. This is where you're supposed to be able to do that." Like, it's not Peoria. God bless Peoria. You know? I mean, this is the land for that. It's like, Jesus, give me a break. So.
Jessica Paxton: And I think that was a big, big part of of, again, punk, or the idea of punk.
John Doe: But that was, and that was a great thing. I think that's, if anything, what punk's legacy is, punk rock's legacy is, that kids in high school and junior high can can dress up weird and make a statement, and then they have to battle through that a little bit. They have to struggle a little bit with that. And now it's a lot more accepted. And if you, you know, that's that's where, like the gender fluidity is coming in, and it's like it's more acceptance. And with young people nowadays, it's like, "What do you want to be called? OK, cool." And that's about as long as it takes. It takes about a second and a half. It's like, "All right, let me know if it changes." And I don't know if that's attached to punk rock, but that's part of the fashion thing. I digress. Not at all, because, in fact, I was going to ask you guys, when you think about, and I don't want to get so hung up on the idea of punk, but I think of punk also as, like, revolution and protest. It's freedom. It's really just freedom.
Jessica Paxton: Freedom.
John Doe: It pulls people together, and it gives you a kind of vocabulary, and you think, "Oh, well, you're going to get me, and I'm going to get you, because we understand or know this." And I think that happened earlier too, where you're just turning people on to music. It wasn't that you were better than someone because they didn't know about it, which maybe happened in the 2000s, like, "Oh, you wouldn't know about that, because you're not cool." It was like, "Oh, haven't you heard? Oh, you haven't heard this. Well, you have a great thing to listen to," which is, I think maybe that's happening more nowadays.
Jessica Paxton: That's really beautiful.
John Doe: Yeah.
Jessica Paxton: Well, there's other stuff I wanted to say, but we're gonna end now. But thank you guys so much..
Exene Cervenka: Thank you, Jessica. Thanks for having us on.
John Doe: It was a pleasure.
Songs Performed
00:00:00 Flipside
00:02:56 Because I Do
00:05:34 In This House That I Call Home
Song 1 is from X’s 2024 album, Smoke & Fiction; song 2 is from X’s 1982 album, Under The Big Black Sun; and song 3 is from X’s 1981 album, Wild Gift. These albums are available on Fat Possum Records, Elektra Records, and Slash Records, respectively.
Musicians
John Doe – guitar, vocals
Exene Cervenka – vocals
Credits
Guests – John Doe and Exene Cervenka of X
Host – Jessica Paxton
Producer – Derrick Stevens
Audio Engineer – Evan Clark
Video Director – Eric Xu Romani
Camera Operators – Eric Xu Romani, D’Vir Rudin
Graphics – Natalia Toledo
Digital Producer – Luke Taylor