MARY LUCIA: I'm Mary Lucia and we are doing a Zoom interview with Lindsey Jordan of Snail Mail. Lindsey, how are you?

LINDSEY JORDAN: What's up? I'm actually pretty good. How are you?

You look good. You're in a fine hotel and you just revealed something to me that is very serious, and it's something that you only just found out?

Yeah, you're getting the fresh like true blue reaction to the information right now.

Okay, talk to me.

Okay, well, so I have polyps on my vocal cords. They're massive, like pretty severe. And, yeah, I just found out a couple days ago, and I have to get an operation and multiple months of speech therapy, and we're cancelling like half of the Valentine tour.

Oh my God.

I know. Or rescheduling, postponing.

Well sure, and I mean, in this day and age of postponement, maybe people will be far more understanding. But the fact that--you know, the thing about your vocal cords is that do you feel like when you sing--are you the kind of singer that warms up? Are you the kind of singer who will just like scream your head off if you feel like it onstage? Is somebody going to try to tell you, "You haven't been using your vocal cords correctly"?

Well, so it's funny that you asked, this is just--everyone in my life is like, you know, they find out this information and they're like, [sarcastically] "Oh, really?" Like, it's not from singing. It's from talking. So they can tell of course, like based on the location of where they are, what they're from, and I figured that I had really done myself in smoking weed or maybe singing because that would make the most sense. I sing like, you know, as if I'd been smoking cigarettes for 40 years, but I just assumed my voice was just naturally husky, and it is. It's naturally raspy and a little on the lower end.

But I had been thinking, because I've been doing like pretty serious vocal coach stuff, like for months, just preparing for the tour because I always lose my voice. And I was beating myself up to a pulp thinking that I was doing it to myself not being able to sing with the right technique or something. And I'm a real student in that, like, I practice so much. And I really do everything they say--I warm up. I have like, this metal straw that I do vocal warm ups with. It's like a 20 minute thing, I take it all very seriously. I drink a lot of water, I sleep, I don't party during tours, like stuff like that. And I got a new vocal coach who is very, like health centric. And he was like, "You're doing all the techniques stuff correctly. Actually, what's going on is--it seems like there's something medically, you should go to the EMT." So I had an EMT appointment scheduled for months. It was like hard to get in. And eventually, right before my big tour, I go in and they were like, "Oh my god, these are very serious. You should go to this other larynx professional," to really see what's up. And the larynx guy was like--he did the the X ray, and he was like, "Pretty bad in there." And they're from they're from talking. Gabbin'.

Well as a fellow raspy gal, it's kind of the thing where yeah, you were doing all the right things. You were drinking tea and doing your warm ups and stuff. But yeah, I mean, good Lord, if we're a chatty person, do we have to be punished with surgery? I mean, for real?

Exactly. Well, and there's a lot of things that come with it that are funny. They're like, "You should be taking vocal naps," and on tour, like not talking during the day and stuff like that. And I don't know, it feels a little bit like a punishment and a little bit like the best news I've ever heard. Because, in a lot of ways, I feel like I've been swimming upstream against my own condition. And I've always just like been--you know, a sense of imposter syndrome comes with that, where I'm like, "Why is it so hard for me to do my job? Why do I lose my voice every two days?" Like, why am I so scared to go on tour because I think I'm gonna, like, ruin it for myself. All this pressure, all this stuff. Like, I find out, it's not my fault. There's a fix. And I get the chance to--I don't know, just take the time to make sure I'm really doing things right.

You've probably done your research too. There's a lot of singers who've had that very operation and it's scary, of course, because it's your voice but I think you'll be okay. And you'll soak up that time just to have people wait on you hand and foot.

[laughs] Oh nooo.

Well, we're doing this as a session because of course you do have "Valentine" the record and we wanna take a quick break here and listen to a tune from it and we'll come right back.

[music: "Valentine" by Snail Mail]

Lindsey, you know, I'm just gonna guess that you--well, you are. I think it's safe to say you are a nonfiction writer. And with your songs, I kind of wonder because you are a young person that has developed--I guess just a style at this point of songwriting and writing in general that I always think--does that scare you a little bit to feel like, "Oh man, is this what I have to do for the rest of my life? Do I have to bleed on stage every night? Or can I learn to write in the third person, tell someone else's story."

That's a really good question. And it is something that I think about all the time. I think there is definitely--once you assign yourself to a period of time, which I really think there was definitely a threat with "Lush" of just being like a blip in time because it really was of-the-moment which is really cool, but at the same time, I didn't want to be pigeonholed. I feel personally, you know, I don't know, kind of locked into a cage, when people put me in the category of like, sad girl, and compare me to artists that are like, also sad women that I'm just like, I don't know, I felt like I--and it is interesting, "Valentine" is very sad. I'm aware of that. But I don't want to make it a brand. It's a thing where I've been thinking critically about the next record. And is it something you can't really do, because you can't plan for what emotions are gonna like cause inspiration or whatever, but I do want to be sure to just vary more. And I tried to with "Valentine" as much as I could, because I do notice that sadness is the easiest place for me personally to write from and pull from. And those kinds of experiences I find, like writing poetry and lyrics about--it's not easy, but it's the easiest to go into depth because I think sadness is a feeling that you can look back on and remember it in all of its visceral detail.

Where anger is something that passes and you look back and you're embarrassed, the feeling is different. It's a feeling that I think you can continue to pull from. So there's a couple angry songs on "Valentine"--"Light Blue" is a pure love song. But even coming that little category that I've put myself into, like reflecting on this relationship, whatever. I do want to vary it because, I don't know, people kind of start to expect and they want you to keep doing the same thing over and over again. But then there's also everyone else, and me where it's like if I was writing the same album I wrote when I was 15 over and over and over again, everybody would think I was a weirdo. I'm not sure everybody actually wants the same thing over and over again. But that is from my position what I'm experiencing. I meet a lot of people that are like, "I really miss the guitar." I'm like, "Okay."

It's hard, because you come out of the gate with a really strong record. And then you go on tour to support it, and you make a certain amount of fans and yeah, you have no control over their expectation of you continuing to be a sad bastard for the rest of your life, right? And then you go, "Well, hey, hang on a second, I might be actually happy right now," and something might be just a really huge geyser of ideas. But there's still always going to be the expectations you can't control of your fans and the listeners that just want you to do the same old thing. But I think more and more artists are just going, "Build a bridge, get over it, because I am not going to be that person you need me to be." Maybe Adele. Like I'm just thinking in my head, I could not imagine Adele writing a song about someone else's experience, it seems to work for her. But the fact that you said you've got some anger, and when you're on or on a tour, which you will be soon, but you are reliving a lot of crappy feelings, and a lot of both the sad stuff and the angry stuff. And that I guess that's part of being an artist and knowing when to kind of pull back and keep a little, just a tiny little bit for yourself and not give it all away.

Yeah, I mean, that's huge. That's something I also think about all the time. Anything from a point of view of a character is a writing style that I haven't grasped yet. And I've thought about it, I've considered it. I've even--I will go as far as to say I've dabbled in it and tried. And I think that it's maybe something that I could look into down the line but at the time, the feelings that were coming to the surface that I was trying to write about, or not even trying to write about--but just living through on "Valentine" were so strong for me that I was processing as I was going and there were little details that made their way into some of the demos, into some of the drafts that were too personal and just went too far into detail--went further into detail than I was willing to go. Then there's the hard line of what am I willing to say in the press? And once you set the boundary, I think at least for me personally, if I traverse the boundary I'm gonna be very angry at myself. I go into interviews and I'm like, I'm not gonna say any like--I don't know, because it's just like if you want to be the Mr. Personal Write About Your Life guy, you can't continue to have friends and girlfriends. Oh, hold on. There's my room service coffee.

Her coffee is coming now, and we're talking to Lindsey of Snail Mail and talking about the record "Valentine," about being vulnerable, pigeonholed into being the sad singer. And now she's got a coffee with almond milk delivered to her door.

My third of the day.

Your third of the day? Fantastic. I guess the thing is, again, maybe it's a trait as you get more experienced in caring less about, like I was saying--other people's expectations. Certainly journalists, I think you'd care more about fans than you would about writers. Am I wrong?

Dude. I mean, it's funny, of course I have strong feelings about this. But I have to be so careful. I'm just picturing the look on my managers face, but I guess, journalists, I mean, some of them are awesome. But some of them, they'll come to the interview already unimpressed. And it's like your task of the day to convince them to like you and your project. And I'm done with that. I've gotten to a point where I'm like, you know, you could be the most charming person in the world and have the most charming, great songs in the world. And some journalists just come to the interview, like, "Prove it." And I'm like, "I'm tired." That's the type of thing where I'm just like, if they don't like it, I'm like, I don't know. I guess I don't really read the reviews because it stresses me out. But I just rely on the people around me to be like, "That was a good review back there," and I'm like, "Cool."

And then maybe I'm projecting but wouldn't you rather just like sit down with another writer and have a conversation rather than this line of questions that it's like, "I've answered this so many times. I'm going to take a hostage." I want to know what you're reading right now. Okay, hold it up. What is it?

I don't want to butcher anything--Tokyo Ueno.

Who's the author?

Yu Miri

Okay. Tell me, did someone recommended it? Or did you pick it up?

I'm also reading "All About Love" by Bell Hooks. And I like to, every trip I go on to, especially pressed tour type trips. I like to have one serious book, like an informative book, and one fiction book. And so I was shopping for my friend's birthday present at Strand the other day--

Love Strand.

I love Strand!

You can't get anything on the top shelf, unless you have no fear of ladders.

That's right. I had a friend jumping for me recently, like equally short, but more daring. And eventually, we got one down just through repetitive jumps. But that's kind of what you have to do.

For anyone who doesn't know, the Strand Bookstore in New York on Broadway is legendary. And you should support them because they're independent business, but they have the most massively stacked shelves. And the people that work there are probably all like Mensa level intelligence. And it's like, "Hey, where's the section on biography?" And they just kind of wave at you in a certain area and then go, "You just gotta climb that ladder," and you're like, "Whaa? I gotta what?" It's so groovy, the whole experience. Anyway, you were buying a book at the Strand for your friend.

For my friend, actually got him American Pastoral by Philip Roth, which I just myself finished recently and loved. And he has similar taste as me so I was like, I'll pick this up. And I saw this other book--it might have been in notable fiction, and I thought the cover was really intriguing. And I just read the back and I was like, "Wow," and I'm loving it. It's great.

Maybe that's a sign that if you're finding some more fiction that you like, maybe it might unlock a little part of your own songwriting, and like you said, you've given it a try. And I'll tell you straight up, I don't read--I just want to hear about people's real stories. So I'm obsessed with biographies of anybody. Truly, I mean that. I can watch a documentary about like, whoever invented the toilet brush, you know? I mean, if it's interesting enough, I'll watch it and I just want to hear other people's stories. But I know you're a fan of Joan Didion who I love, did you watch her documentary?

I did. "The Center Will Not Hold," right?

Yeah, which, the Sleater-Kenney--that only came to me later that's Sleater-Kinney had named their record "Center Won't Hold" after that. But what a powerful person and what a powerful woman. She was, again, I'm not going to be the Wikipedia on Joan Didion but for anybody who didn't--I mean, she was really vocal about like the Central Park Five and she was married to another writer John Gregory Dunne, but there's so many people that inspire me and I'm just so captivated by other people's stories and I know you're in bed and you just got a coffee so you probably don't even have shoes on right now, right?

No, but I can put some on.

Well, I was just gonna say this is the thing I missed the most about Zoom interviews, is that I don't get to see what people--what their shoes are.

Oh, God, they're right here. There are shoes that go with this outfit and pants that I'm not wearing either, and I keep seeing my pants creep into the screen. I'm like, damn, not even wearing the pants that go with the outfit. These--

Ok that seems like a little Chelsea boot? Cute!

Yeah, they're super cute. They're Joan and David Italian--

Italiano leather, those are about a three and a half inch heel. Almost four just from the way you showed that. I'm all about shoes. In fact, when I do interviews sometimes when I'm trying to think of the next place to go I just start looking down at their footwear and I feel like it telepathically tells me where to go. Here, I'll show your mine since you showed me yours.

Yeah, please, shoes are such an important--tell me about these.

My cowboy boots. They're so comfortable.

Those are awesome. I like them a lot. Great height on those.

Yeah, it's really good. I like that mid calf. Well we're gonna get another song, and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna chat about God knows what.

[music: "Pristine" by Snail Mail]

I don't want to overplay the fact that you're going to have to take a little bit of time off, but again, if the last two years have taught us nothing else, it's make friends with change. You cannot depend on, "Okay, I have this tour all planned out with the release of the record," and no, your health is far more of a concern, and I get that. So, in this time, are there going to be people, whether it be management/label/friends going, "Well then write another record, Lindsey."

You know what, actually, it's so amazing. The people that I work with that continue to work with me, and it's pretty much the all of the original same team--are just like people that really trust my artistry, and they want me to take my time, and they want me to do whatever I want. They want me to take vacations, because I think it's just a long term investment. Everybody that I work with, is like, "She's a writer," and so I'm like, that's the kind of energy that I need around me. Nobody at my label at any point was like, "You're running late. This thing needs to be turned in," any guidance I got in that direction was kind of more along the lines of, "If you want to tour within the next year, if you want to put the record out before 2022--here's what it needs to be done."

I don't think anyone will say anything, maybe they'll think it. Because I definitely won't be singing or anything. I was actually thinking about how it could technically be like a lucrative time for me, however, there will be an entire month where my voice box just doesn't work. It won't be that I'm not supposed to talk, I won't be able to talk.

Well, you know, the crazy thing--that is amazing to think that you will be without that. Well, I guess your voice is, in a sense, one of the senses. But what an interesting thing, I think I know just enough about you to know that you're curious about the world around you. I can't imagine what that experience is going to be like for you after four weeks of writing notes for people and whatever else communication, maybe you'll get really good at pantomime. You'll get--I don't know, learn sign language, but it'll be a really interesting learning experience for you to go, "Wow. I didn't talk for a month."

Well, I won't lie to you. I'm actually pretty excited. I talked to one of my friends who had the same surgery. He's a singer, as well and he was talking about how just having, you know, it sounds corny, but it's very rehab to like, have a purposeful--it's not my fault. I'm not choosing, but having a time where you are sitting back and listening and not inserting yourself into conversations and just really taking the time to observe, I'm actually thinking it'll be good for me because sometimes I want to put myself more in that mindset, but it's like I physically cannot control myself from opening my mouth and yammering sometimes. I think I might get stoic and wise with it. I don't know.

Well, it works for Zen monks. And I think it can work for you too. But I am so glad to meet you and talk to you. We love the record, and you just need to take care of yourself. We're playing the record, we're loving it, and like I said, you got to just check--do you post stuff on Instagram? Or are you not so willing to share life on social media?

Oh, first of all, it's nice to meet you, too. I'm having a really nice time. Second, we are going to make a statement, just to let people know what's up. The thing about my Instagram is I do not have the login, and I chose for it to be that way.

Smart.

I found this like sweet spot in my life during the pandemic time, where I just realized I like myself more when I'm not in a validation spiral at all times. I, at least personally, really noticed it has done my personality, a lot of favors to not have Instagram, and it takes a lot of anxiety away. I never realized how much anxiety comes from it. I don't necessarily need to know what people are saying to me on Instagram, and I kind of prefer to be in the dark.

You should be.

So my day to day assistant, Holly, who's awesome, I will text her things that I want her to post it with captions. And sometimes I'll be like, "Can you come up with the caption?" And it just keeps everything sort of--I feel if I'm going to be a personal lyricist, and sort of an open book, so to speak. My boundary's set, and it's been really fantastic.

Well, and you could also, just have fun with people--it's like, what are you obligated to tell people? I mean, you could get some really wild story going like you fake your own death or something or you got kidnapped and--

We should collaborate on this.

Well, thank you so much for talking and speedy speedy recovery. And maybe I'll see you at the Strand this winter. I'll be the one terrified of heights in nonfiction biography at the very top of the ladder.

I look forward to that interaction. It'll be one for the ages.

I'll be there. I'll be there for the whole two weeks before Christmas. So you'll see me there at least a couple times.

Okay, cool. I'll definitely see you there. I'm already planning my Christmas presents based around this.

Totally. Thank you so much for chatting and get some more room service.

I'm going to. Thank you so much.

Songs Played

05:16 Valentine
21:52 Pristine
33:06 Glory

Credits

Host - Mary Lucia
Guest - Lindsey Jordan
Producers - Jesse Wiza, Derrick Stevens
Technical Director - Peter Ecklund

External Links

Snail Mail - official site